Gina Chen: The Legal Ally Every Purpose-Driven Founder Needs

Welcome to the Wisdom of Women show.

We are dedicated to amplifying the voice of women in business.

A new model of leadership is emerging and we are here to amplify the voices of women leading the way.

I am your host, Coco Selman, five time founder, impact investor and creator of the Force for Good system.

Thank you for joining us today as we illuminate the path to unlocking opportunities and prosperity for women led enterprises by amplifying the voice and wisdom of women.

Today we have a purpose built legal visionary in our midst.

Gina Chen is the founder and managing attorney of One Ally, a mission driven corporate law firm.

Reimagining legal counsel through human centered compassion led approaches.

A first generation immigrant and lawyer, Gina brings the rare combination of $10 billion in Wall street deal experience and grassroots global advocacy.

From Fulbright research in China to launching one of southwest China's first organic farming collectives, Gina has advised Fortune 10 companies, private equity and and venture capital funds and high growth startups on complex transactions, governance and strategic growth.

Today, Gina is building a new model of lawyering.

One that stands as a true ally to women, minorities and purpose driven founders, creating companies of lasting impact and generational change.

Welcome Gina.

Thank you so much Coco, such a pleasure to be here.

So great to have you.

I'm so excited.

I just have to tell everybody.

One of my dear friends, Jen Nash introduced me to Gina and it is always fun when we make these connections and cross pollinate with one another.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah.

Such a small world.

So as I always ask at the beginning, what's a book written by a woman has significantly changed your life?

I think this is actually a unusual book that I read not too long ago.

It was during pandemic as part of my book club of I think seven women.

This is a book by a mortician and it's called Traveling the world to find the Good Death.

I think the author, it's Caitlyn Doty.

So the book is literally her journey documenting different death traditions around the world and what that means for the living as well.

And so when you think about our relationship as a society to death, right.

Your immediate thought is, you know, life terminates obviously at a moment death arrives.

And there is an entire industry around death as well here in the United States.

But when you step out of that framework and you see how other cultures, countries, mourn, grieve, but also celebrate death and celebrate the living and the memories of those who have lived, it's an absolutely phenomenal book, humbling book too.

And I think it got me and many of my friends, and I got my family started thinking about what does it mean to live a good life, but also what about the loved ones?

And how do you want to be remembered and how do you approach the end of life?

So that was absolutely a book that got me thinking a lot because it's a topic that's been taboo for my culture.

I grew up in a Chinese household, and we don't really talk about that.

And so this was a book that pushed me out of my boundary zone to have these conversations with my family, with loved ones as well.

Oh, I just love that.

So I just want to make sure I get this right.

It's called Traveling the World to find a Good Death.

Yeah.

The author, what was the first name?

Caitlin.

C A I T L I N DOTY D O U G H T Y Ah.

I just can't wait to read this because it feels like it's profound to think about life and death and purpose.

Right.

Yes.

It causes us to stop and think about what we want our lives to be about.

And.

And I know that is purpose is something that's very important to you.

Yeah.

To you.

To all of us.

And I think exactly like you said, when you face the question of mortality, you're really grappling with what is my impact in this world?

How do I want to be remembered, celebrated?

What is the legacy that I am creating, too?

And so, again, highly recommend.

Explore cultures in Latin America, in Asia, Spain, Japan.

Right.

And our very own United States, too.

So definitely recommend.

Thank you so much.

I'll pick it up.

And we like to feature women authors because so often the women authors don't make it to the top of the New York Times bestselling list.

And when you go on to Amazon, especially when it comes to business books, it's almost always white men that are leading the way.

And there's.

I think it's incumbent on all of us to seek out the wisdom of women and find those authors that have.

That are sharing new ways to see the world.

And this sounds like a really incredibly valuable way to look at life and death through a woman's lens.

So thank you for that, Gina.

Absolutely.

I like to find out from our guests and our listeners, we like to hear about the moments of your life that have shaped you and who you are.

I wonder if you could look back on your life and you have some really interesting experiences that I just found looking around on the Internet about you, both your huge impact in business and your success in business, but also doing some really interesting social work as well, socially conscious work and farming too, which is really interesting.

So I wonder if you would share with us.

And it doesn't have to be in any of those contexts, but what are some of the moments in your life that have shaped who you are?

Three moments.

I think the first one would probably be the earliest memories that I've had growing up.

Be spending summers growing up at my grandparents farm in the countryside and China.

So I spent all the summer vacations, any vacation I had, my mom would take me to the countryside.

I did grow up in the provision capital, but it's only two hours away from the countryside, rural China.

And I remember summers catching dragonflies with a bamboo pole stick dipped in spider webs.

And then the spider webs have to be the very early spider webs, the first thing in the morning because those spider webs had dew on it to make it super sticky.

And so the dragonflies would land on the poles.

And that's how you capture them.

And it's that proximity to nature, to produce, to growth, you know, when you can see the labors and what went into farming, to harvesting, I think that really left a imprint on me when later on I was working on environmental activism and water protection and food, regenerative food.

That was, I think that was a point that always returned to in my mind.

It's how do we preserve and constrain those connections for this generation and for future generations.

Where do we go for that kind of connection to nature, to food again?

And so that's always been an anchoring memory, core memory of mine just growing up.

And I always think about the summers where I also caught grasshoppers in the fields, the corn fields, and fed the grasshoppers to the chickens that my grandparents kept.

I did a ton of pest control, let's just say the fuels.

Yeah.

So I think that was clearly the most vivid memory of my childhood that I always stick to present day.

And then the second key moment I would say was absolutely coming to America.

The experience of immigrating to the US when I was 10 with my mother and growing up in Chicago with her.

She was a single mother and we were each other's best friends, and we still are.

And seeing her build life in Chicago as a new immigrant, seeing her really just hustling to get things done to make sure I am provided for, that we had a constant roof over our head and that we had food on our table, that she's just such a hero for me.

And I am very lucky that I have seen an example of incredibly strong women and saw how she gave up her career essentially in China.

And she was doing fabulous in international trade and coming to the US she had to start all over again.

And she wasn't afraid to pivot constantly.

Later on became a beautician and she went to beauty school.

And seeing my mom making these pivots, transitions also made these pivots less daunting for me too, in my own personal career where my mother was never the stereotypical immigrant or the tiger mom that people think of.

She was never on my back about school studies because I think I'm more type A than she ever could imagine.

She was the one who would tell me to chill out a little bit, don't work too hard, go to sleep where I prioritize health.

So she's absolutely just one of my clear role models in life and I owe a lot to her.

And we are best friends.

We take mothered daughter trips every year.

That's our annual thing.

And so the second key theme is I have seen what women and strong women are capable of doing, of creating life, of growing and of a growing community too.

She's doing the same in China.

She's building community.

She's back now in China.

She's organizing friends, colleagues, doing different farm visits.

And it's just incredible to see what she's always been up to.

Right?

And so when I made career pivots, transitions in life after college, I went to China for my Fulbright year of research.

Right Was in kind of post earthquake rebuilding analysis.

I really wanted to understand the urban reconstruction and the sustainability lens and that rebuilding process.

Most adults around me thought I was crazy.

They are all like, you got a great education, stay in the us why bother?

Go back to China.

And my mother was probably the only one who was like, no, you do what makes sense for you.

I support you.

This is great.

You sound super excited.

And later on, when she saw that I was working with farmers, building out the farmer co ops, she got involved too.

This is so fun.

Like, let me join you.

How do I rally up other villagers?

And so she was able to go back to her ancestral village and connect some of the farmers with the NGO work that I was doing.

So it's.

I can't ask for a more supportive ally, friend in my own career, in my own life than my mother.

Yeah, the first one.

And she's always been a rock for me.

That's amazing.

So I'm curious, genuinely curious, what was the reason that your mother and you decided to move to Chicago from China.

Yeah.

And at the time she was, because she worked in foreign trade, she was among the first batch of Chinese people to ever leave the country, to fly for business, to travel on an airplane.

So back then, in the late 80s, my mother was among the first to go to Russia, to Germany, to Italy, to Australia, because she was doing international trade.

And it was leather products that she was kind of overseeing, leather jackets, gloves, and there were customer clients.

So this is back then when a lot was state controlled and state owned, she was able to go.

And I think that really opened up her worldview of what's possible, what's out there.

And because of that mindset, she was like, I want her to grow up in the US what we all hear as the happiest place for kids in the world.

And she literally just single handedly made the decision, let's just immigrate, let's go to the US and at the time, she could still do some of the work to trade in the US by setting up an office here in America.

But then after privatization, that whole trend kind of shifted.

And then she also grew to love the life that we've built in Chicago.

And then she got super interested in beauty and health and went to beauty school.

Right.

I love this.

I mean, what a trailblazer, right?

I think it's the model vision of what women are.

Right?

This is what we as women can aspire to be.

Not tethered to the past or whatever we think we should do or whatever is safe.

It's like, where are we called to go and what do we need to do for our families and for our children, and where do we feel we can be of highest and best use?

Oh, exactly.

And I think to your point about flexibility of seeing ourselves in and out in different spaces, and I think that's something I now look at my mom's career.

I think she's figured that out.

Even when she first joined the workforce, she was like, I was never the person to show up on time because I want to drop you off of school.

And that mattered.

And work's gonna get done, so what if I don't clock in exactly at XYZ time?

And so she's never been someone who just followed the rules for the sake of the rules.

But she made her life a priority, what she cared about and made it fit into that picture of her life.

And she was one of the best employees of that company.

She managed books of businesses that when she left, she passed on to her colleagues and her friends who later made it big in the U.S. she Really, I asked her, do you regret giving a lot of that up because you could have been long ago, retired and just doing whatever she's like, No, I made that decision because this is a life I want to build with you.

And I knew that whatever decision I made, especially by coming to the US you will absolutely benefit from these opportunities.

And I, I have so much gratitude for that choice.

Oh my goodness.

It gives me chills to think about the choices of your mother and the example that she set and now how you have lived your life.

So you gave us summers with your grandparents catching dragonflies.

Right.

And then you talked about coming to America at age 10.

What's one more moment that has shaped your life?

I definitely think the most recent one is really just venturing out and starting my own firm.

This is absolutely me betting on myself, where I'm taking years of my work, expertise in law, in the legal profession, and marrying that with my own passion for just nourishing growth, mindset.

And how do I nurture that with my clients?

How do I build an ecosystem to support my clients?

I'm not just their attorney.

I'm making key introductions for them, investors, service providers, or building this community with them too.

So that is something I love what I'm doing that's beyond just the practice of law.

And this is absolutely something that I think for me right now, it's.

This is the chapter that I am in and so much that I've done, everything I've done till now somehow just make sense for me where I am.

Like I think before in the law firm environment, I felt most times it was a very one dimensional experience.

Just me as the lawyer, one dimensional transactional attorney.

And I can be very good at it.

But what about all these dimensions of ourselves as women?

All of us have so many different spheres that we occupy.

And for me too, it was many identities that I had to erase during the time when I was there.

Right.

I was an artist and I still am.

I love to paint.

I love watercolor.

I painted Chinese watercolor for years.

I'm a musician, I love playing piano.

I'm a community advocate.

I did so much work for immigrant communities back in Chicago and in ndc.

And somehow all of that just kind of disappeared when you're in that big law firm setting.

And so now this is a chance to really embrace the different convergence points and tying all these little dots together.

Yeah.

I have a question.

It's a curious question.

I visited my university of Rochester, where I went to undergrad recently.

And I was just last week and I met with all these students and was reflecting upon life and choice and how you land in different stages.

Like how you land in the moments where you're ready to launch Ally.

Right.

And how do you think about that stage when you were in corporate?

Do you regret it?

Do you feel like, no, yeah, I'll completely not.

Do I have anxieties?

Absolutely, yes.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think about what's next, what I should be doing, Am I doing enough?

I think there is part of me that is, like I told you, I have the type A mentality.

Am I doing this right?

What more can I do?

How do I constantly think about improving, growing.

Right.

And there's always a part of me that's thinking about, am I doing enough?

Is this where I'm supposed to be?

And then I catch myself, what am I measuring against?

What am I trying to measure against?

And then I catch myself saying, hold on, take a step back and take stock of what you're building right now.

A lot of this needs time, patience and really you're just sowing the seeds at this point.

Yeah.

So it's trying to give space, air and nurturing for the space to grow.

Right.

And I have to remind myself it's okay to have anxiety and.

But you know, being part of entrepreneur is.

Yeah, well.

And you know, I also think it's just what I feel like is you come with this rich experience that you wouldn't have gotten.

You've done all of this sophisticated M and A work, you've done all kinds of very heavy duty corporate law.

That is the benefit of working for a big law firm.

And now you get to take that experience and bring it into a new form.

And the reason I'm bringing it up is just how sometimes I think those early stages of learning and building, we like to say, especially when we're out of it, because once you transition, you feel better.

But like I couldn't do what I do today.

I couldn't be a CEO when I was 22.

Right.

I had to go and learn.

I had to go and do the necessary pieces and learn the skills and explore all the avenues and have mentors and be told what to do before I had had the creativity to figure out how to do things on my own.

So I value your experience deeply.

I think it was probably very hard when you were doing it and I'm excited that you've decided to branch out and do things differently.

But I just wanted to hear about Your reflections on the value of that experience?

No, 100%.

Because the years in Big Law on Wall street, they were incredibly formative.

And I still believe law is fundamentally learned best through apprenticeship.

It's apprenticeship model.

And I've seen amazing lawyering happening.

And to this day I do acknowledge the training that I've gotten from amazing lawyers that I've happened to work with.

And actually quite a few of them were women, but they also left Big Law after a few years.

Right.

And so when, at the time when I was about to leave, I also looked around and I said, where are all the awesome women that once mentored and made law?

Incredible.

Like they left.

The lessons and the regard that they taught me really stuck with me.

It's attention to detail, client service, the drive that they have, the creativity as well.

And yeah, like training critical to have the confidence to be able to practice, to have the confidence to know that you are a great attorney and people love that you are their best advocate, you have a business savviness to advocate for them and then everything else is.

It's all your life experience that you bring that enhances your identity as a lawyer.

Right.

For me it's all the work that I've done prior to becoming a lawyer and all the community work that I've done in my life just make me probably someone that they think, wow, I have never worked with someone like that.

And she brings so much more to the table than just being a great attorney to our company.

So coming to that.

So you've had this experience now then in the traditional systems of law, you've gone through the traditional rungs and along the way you said, okay, there's a better way and you decided to create one ally.

What is one ally and how is it different?

So I think of one ally as really a boutique firm.

And by that I mean it's so customized where we very much take you, the client, the business owner, think through your business together.

Especially because we really serve a lot of mission driven clients and we understand that mission is fundamental to what they're creating and impact, social impact.

Right.

And so a lot of our work when we're working with them, it is about thinking through that angle of how do we make sure mission impact stays and like basically intact.

When you're thinking about transactions, strategic ones, when we're thinking or negotiating governance, rights, control, and when you sell your business, are we finding the good long term partners that you're thinking of?

Right.

And so a lot of it is really some of these value aligning Moments and coaching that we try to talk to our clients about.

And sometimes a lot of that can be structured in legal documents and contracts.

And so beyond that I think it is about, it's more of like a holistic advisory angle that we take especially for first time founders who have not navigated a sales cycle before or encountering their first big investment.

Right.

They're thinking, oh my gosh, this is great, okay, let's paper this up.

And so you're there saying, okay, let's take a step back and see what are we looking at?

What's important to you as a founder before you take this money and what are you thinking?

How can this help you and how do you build that into the terms to see the money maybe are used in a way that you wanted to grow this company in a direction that you can still control.

And so I think that point and the second point is that ecosystem that I want to kind of emphasize and focus on again, because we do a lot more than just lawyering.

And we really try to connect our clients sometimes with each other, with other service providers, with key investors, with impact investors, with some funds.

Right.

And same thing funds, founders, investors, we connect them with some of our other clients who we think would be such a great fit for that.

And it's very much done organically in events, sometimes through workshops and just like fun introductions and we facilitate that.

Right.

And there are service providers in our network that we know are extremely mission driven, high integrity as well.

And so that's, it's like when you find us, we're guaranteeing you almost like an ecosystem of incredibly high integrity service providers and key players that you can connect with and hopefully that are there to help you grow.

And that's what we're there for.

We're more than just your legal advisor.

We really want to see our clients prosper because they're all very impact driven.

And sometimes I get so excited when we talk about their business and what their thoughts are for the next year or two.

It's like, this is amazing.

And we nerd out on different things together too.

Love that.

So just in my own experience, I, as a founder, there's the type of founder that starts and knows from the beginning they're going to go and try to raise capital.

And then there's the founder that doesn't know they're going to raise capital at some point.

And it might not be through venture, it could be through angel investors or other types of investors, or it could just be they're going to raise money in Some way, right.

That whether it's through loans or through some other revenue based funding or some credit funds or something like this, there's just all these things that could happen.

In my early years as an entrepreneur, I would go to my accountant and be like, okay, I'm going to set up an entity and go to LegalZoom.

Or he would do it back in the days before the legal zoom.

But it took me a couple generations of starting companies to realize that the structure matters.

Can you say something about that?

Can you say more about that?

Because this is.

I've learned since then and now as I'm at a stage where I'm looking to buy company, I've sold my company, I've done mergers, I almost bought a company in the.

Now I think about this way more than I did.

And I wish that I had learned more about this earlier in my adventure as an entrepreneur.

Go ahead.

Yeah, there's so many considerations that should factor into your mind when you're thinking about structure too.

Because you know what?

Sometimes, and that's totally fine, when businesses just want to set it up and get going and get it quick, right?

And then most often people just set up as an LLC and start operating again.

Totally fine.

Many of our local businesses are set up that way.

And then when you're thinking about fundraising and getting serious capital, most investors do prefer Delaware companies and Delaware corporations.

And then at that point you're like, okay, I guess I need to do something about it, I need to convert it.

And then it gets a little tricky, but it's still doable, right?

You can still convert your entity to the corporation.

But I think it's really important before you start that, think to yourself, what is your 1, 2, 3 year, go 3 to 5 year goal?

And that time frame will drive a lot of your decision making process for the structure of your business as well.

And like you said, there are businesses and founders they know from day one.

I'm setting this up so I can raise money fast from friends and family in the first three months, then we're going to go to some serious institutions and hit them up.

Right?

And so if that's the goal, then going for a Delaware C corp, definitely, probably the most time saving, cost effective way too.

And also you're thinking about tax issues as well, like elections.

And so that there are different timelines that you should pay attention to when you are a founder, when you have these options as well.

And so without getting into too many details, you have to really think through about how am I building this Business, how am I funding this business and what does it look like in the next two, three years really?

Because a lot can happen.

And I have founders who are perfectly fine being LLCs, right?

And they're great local businesses and they serve that.

And they don't care about taking outside money and they just want to stay that way.

And they are growing too, they are transacting business, they're doing a lot of that.

And so it really depends on the nature of your business.

How do you think about growth, taking outside capital.

And when that happens, right, Then you're shifting to a different mindset of how do I think about rights, protection, governance, control.

And you know, and that is interesting because it's a negotiations if you have a co founder, right.

And a lot of times you don't even think about.

It's almost like a prenup, it's a marriage.

When you're creating a business with someone, it is a marriage.

It's such a important piece that you're coming together with.

You're combining different elements of your expertise, skill, time, investment, your assets.

So having really clear founders agreements, shareholders agreements in place before things get tricky, that is key.

Again, it's just like a prenup too.

So I hope founders who have multiple founders, like a founding team, are thinking critically about how we work together to make decisions.

Who can call the shot of anyone and then how do we weigh our different contributions if some of us are bringing in money while one founder is doing all the tech work.

Right.

For the mind of this, of this, let's say like technology that we're building, how do we evaluate that?

And so it's really great to have these conversations earlier and then having some of these, I would call these foundational documents in place before the company is really, you're running.

And I've seen companies, especially some of the family owned businesses, privately held businesses, when they're thinking about succession planning, right.

I will say many don't think about that.

Many do not think about their founding documents, governance, how do you transfer, how do you sell your stake, your ownership stake, not much of that were in their founding documents.

And so a lot of times we go in and we clean up, we make sure that's actually documented properly.

But at that point you would have to get consent approval from so many different people.

And so again, the earlier the better.

And it's great that if like for example, Coco, you've had like the experience taught you all these things right before, again, first time founder, it's hard to be in a place where because you're excited about your product, you're excited about what you're building, you don't think about the legal things.

That's usually back burner.

Total back burner.

Exactly.

And that's why it's so important to have the right legal representation with you on your journey.

And that's also something for.

I want, I want to talk about that a little more about some of what's listed as differentiators on your website in a second.

But I do think it's early in my career I was.

As an entrepreneur.

You're always scrappy.

Right.

We don't want to spend money.

We're like very careful.

And I've learned that the place, like spend your money on lawyers and good accountants, totally worth it.

And I could go on a long journey about having a good relationship with your lawyer.

And I'd also say that you don't have to do everything your lawyer tells you to do.

I always say that.

Right.

It's.

They're there to help you manage your risk and help you understand the options.

And sometimes you have to do whatever it is that you feel you need to do or tell your lawyer what it is you plan to do and help them help you with what your plan is.

But it is not the place to be cheap.

It is not the place to be cheap.

So one of the things I wanted to ask you about, it says on your website you have a cohort model, value based billing and compassion centered lawyering.

Can you tell us what that is?

Yeah.

And then cohort model is really what we talked about before in the ecosystem that we're trying to build.

So each client that we work with.

Right.

We're thinking, especially since a lot of them are founders, we're actually thinking about resources for them that they should think about as they build, like simple things as accountants, PACs, attorneys, strategists that help you structure that.

We have very great referrals.

And then these are the resources and these are the people that we have vetted.

Right.

And we hope that you will consider that, like, we don't push any of this to our clients.

And again, it's also thinking about them very strategically and just like, how do you.

Making sure they're at the right place, that's at the right time, they're getting visibility as well in front of the right people.

And so I think it's a more nurturing model of practicing law, of really thinking about your client as, how do I help them succeed?

Really.

And then I think that's probably something as women, we do, it's that caring for others, that regard that we care so deeply that we want you to succeed.

And what else can we bring?

What resource can I leverage to make sure you succeed?

And so that is what I really essentially mean by the cohort and ecosystem that we build around our client.

And when I say value based kind of the fee system, like the compensation.

Right.

Most law firms do still operate by billable.

And so a lot of our work is through a combination of quotates, like a quote, estimated quote of this is what we think the range will be based on the scope of work you tell us.

And it's basically an estimate of hours that we think it will be.

But you will have an estimate or budget about what this will look like for you.

Right.

So we try to be very much transparent about it from the get go.

And to this day we have always stayed within that and we've always come under as well.

And so that's something that we have, taking pride in, giving our client more of assurance and predictability when they have this legal work that they need to, to help with.

And then the other bucket is we also do flat fee pricing for some of the work that our clients have asked to do.

Sometimes it's just simple review of XYZ contracts.

And we have flat fee pricing for trademarks, copyrights.

Right.

Also for patent work.

And we also do subscription model for companies that have an ongoing legal need, but they don't really want a full time lawyer employed on their team.

They just want outside counsel that they use maybe a few hours a month.

That's something that we offer.

It's a subscription model every month.

We can flex up, flex down, depending on how busy you think your month will be when it comes to legal needs.

And so there are different ways that we try to meet our clients where they're at.

And usually it's a conversation, right.

Starts where they are and it's like, tell me what you're working through and what we think the potential legal issues are and how we can be helpful and what does this look like for you?

We give them a package of what it looks like to work with us and different options too that we'll lay out all for clients.

And so it makes the decision making process very clear for them from the budget perspective.

Love that.

Again, when you're in that moment, you have a business that's growing, you have a team, you've got legal issues related to labor, you've got legal interest maybe due to your product or regulations, whatever's happening in the moment and to know that there's already a relationship in place, you're paying some kind of a standard fee to pick up the phone and call them.

It releases that like, oh, maybe I can figure this out on my own, right?

It's like, no, call them.

You've got to.

If somebody just did something, said something to made a complaint about a supervisor, let's just call and see, right?

Like, let's just make sure somebody made a complaint or somebody wrote a letter to you and is complaining about something with your product.

Just call your lawyer.

Right?

Yeah.

We want to remove that hesitation from clients mind 100%.

And that's I think for us the ethos is really, I'm not going to charge you just because you call me for like, hey, is it okay if I do XYZ very short phone calls just to run something by me?

Right.

And it's like, no, you call me if you need.

Just don't be afraid to talk to your lawyer.

Right.

Really rebuild our clients on the legal work that we're spending time to figure out.

And so that way they're confident that we're building the relationship with them too.

Because we see this as really a long relationship with our clients that they're not afraid to reach out to us.

If little questions pop up, that removes the hurdle to think through some of these issues proactively.

And that is very important.

So important when we can plan and structure before things get to the place where like, oh, that's when we should call the lawyer.

I know that you and your partner, you do incorporation services, contracts, risk negotiations.

What are some of the moments that are overlooked?

When are some of the times when you could be a strategic unlock or a company that helps with long term scale and prosperity.

Tell us about some examples of that.

Yeah, I think one example that comes to mind immediately was when I helped a founder think through the sale of her stake in the company.

And this is an incredibly gifted, smart founder.

She's a professor as well.

We built a team, a company.

Right.

And the, the unfortunate thing was the initial documentation of the funding relationship of the company, the rights that she has as not just a shareholder but as a board member.

And there were later on issues within the company where she was being squeezed out, where she was being pushed out.

And that's when she turned to me at that moment.

Right.

And then we were very fortunate that we were able to negotiate good compensation, but also what she rightfully deserved when the company was sold.

And so she absolutely saw value in having someone who's strategic thinking about it when you're feeling so vulnerable, when you feel the thing that you built, your company that you've spent time building, you're losing control of it and others are getting the benefit of your work.

But then I also, during the course of this, I told her and walked her through.

These are the things that we should have done if you start this company from day one.

And this is what we could have done if I was your lawyer back then.

We needed to have this in place.

And so I think it's also a learning opportunity for her too.

Like if she's working on her next venture clients and what we can do better.

It's like a playbook that I'm building with my client at the same time they're going through this process.

And so that was absolutely an incident, a matter where I felt that I made a huge difference in her life and she was going through personal family issues.

But also, like I was telling her, don't worry, I got this.

You just focus on being there for your family during this difficult time.

And we will regroup after you come back and you will have your stake, you will have what you deserve.

You'll get your proper compensation after your company is sold.

Right.

And so it's, yes, it was like a learning experience sometimes, probably a painful one, to see what some of her co founders or others were trying to do to sabotage her interests through sometimes backhanded ways.

That's just a reminder of the foundation pieces of Trust but verify, but having the relationship papered on the agreement on how you protect your founder rights.

And what about delusion?

Right.

What about your preemptive rights?

Those need to be spelled out very clearly too.

And so I think it's through moments like this that I want my clients to also grow and to become just like, savvy the next time around.

And so we can talk about it in the future and laugh about in the future too.

But look at how much they've grown.

And so, yeah, that was definitely a very precious moment.

And she remarked at the end, she's like, gosh, I'm so happy I'm working with a smart female lawyer.

As a female in this world dominated by men, what does it feel like to have people try to throw you under the bus to sabotage your chances of success?

So I think she really valued my own experiences and also being in the trenches with her.

Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you, it's like, need that right hand.

And I mentioned this to the listeners because know thyself Right.

Some of us are great advocates for others and then sometimes we're not as good for ourselves.

After a call, I want to.

There's a agreement that I'm looking at that's been bothering me and it's because I'm short selling myself and I feel bad about changing the deal, but I kind of feel like I should and it's not working for me.

And if somebody came to me with this deal, I would say, no, no, no, no.

But here it is, I'm looking at it and I'm like, maybe I should just sign it.

But I need as a way to protect myself and to a way to just have a good self care in place.

I need to go to bed at night early or I don't feel good the next day.

I need to have a lawyer who can help me with these kinds of situations so I don't have to.

It doesn't have to be all on my shoulders.

Right.

I think that's the point.

Like we take care of that so you can run the business, do the thing that, you know, we're doing what we love, so we hope you're doing what you love.

I just love it.

And I do think that what a wonderful person you are for so many founders, men and women alike, but in particular for women, so that we can really feel understood and supported and know that we have somebody at our back.

And so super smart too.

Like you've done all these very complex things.

It's not like all you've done is set up business entities.

You've done mergers, acquisitions, all kinds of complex pieces.

So like we're not going to come along and bring ideas and things to you that you haven't dealt with.

Trademark issues, patent issues.

I just am very excited to have you here and get to meet our community.

All right, so we're going to transition now to a fast fire round.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I don't think I told you about this.

We do five questions that we invite you to answer in five words or less.

It's quick, it's simple and just answer from your heart, from your soul, whatever comes to mind.

Great.

Biggest red flag you see in early stage companies.

No foundation documents.

Again, I think we've emphasized this enough already.

Governance documents knocked out, just boilerplate templates.

Yeah, that's a red flag for me.

Yeah, red flag.

Big, biggest green flag for an early stage company.

They have a very robust advisory board lined up.

They have great lawyer, accountant, tax.

It's like their own board.

Like we each have our own personal boards too.

Right.

And I think founders who think about the resources when they start and they are, you know, like starting their company with this is like music to my ears.

I'm like, oh yes.

You have these people who are invested in your success.

It's all lined up.

Yeah.

Green flag.

One legal mistake that can quietly kill a company.

I think succession planning, just thinking about transfer rights from the very beginning.

Think about what happens when you will sell the company.

Think about that exit even when you start.

I think this is how you ensure that you're sustaining and you're building.

Beautiful.

What do you protect Fiercely.

No matter what the deal size.

I think this is definitely my client's mission.

Like it's a personal mission for wanting to start the business.

It's like are we serving that goal?

Is selling the company, is buying other assets, serving that goal, growing that goal.

And that is something that I help very much kind of focus, raise our end on and just hone in on making sure that we don't lose sight of that.

Because fundamentally like again, I'm very proud of my clients missions and the impact they're building and how do we amplify that.

And that's what I'm always thinking about along them.

I love it.

So when one ally becomes wildly successful, what changes in our world?

I think when that happens.

Right.

We're building toward that.

I want founders and individuals who are trying to make an impact building organizations and business be legally savvy and know that there's a firm or a group of lawyers there who serve this crowd.

Like we're not just big law attorneys or former big law attorneys.

But this is people with a heart focused mind, intention to build alongside you and you have access to great legal support.

Right.

That's not beyond reach.

That's not out of your budget.

It's not like Wall street rates where meet clients where you're at.

And you know that these are folks who you can trust who have represented some of the biggest names on Wall Street.

Right.

But they're trying to also bring that rigor to you because they believe so deeply in you and you deserve that kind of legal representation.

I love it.

So how can our listeners and viewers learn more about you and one ally.

I would absolutely encourage you to connect with me on LinkedIn.

Also our website, one-outlight.com and I love to hear about what you're building and how it can be that.

Exactly.

Right.

Founders are always.

I'm always fascinated with what founders are working on.

Right.

Isn't it just the most exciting thing?

It just totally recharges me.

That's why I periodically go to different founders events.

I was in SF for Climate Week two weeks ago and hearing about what's coming out of that.

Like founders who are building in a climate space.

This is so energizing and recharging for me.

It's like this is why I'm in the space.

I love it.

Thank you Gina thank you for joining us today on the Wisdom of Women Show.

Thank you for illuminating path to unlocking opportunities and more prosperity for women led enterprises and to our world changers, our listeners.

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